This post is very much a sister post to the last Thursday Thought.
I consider myself a supporter of pure feminism, which I define as a movement seeking equality for women.* It appalls me when women are objectified by the media, by society, and by people I know. Women deserve to have every right a man does. Many people are depressingly ignorant of the physical, social, and mental issues associated with the abuse of women. I have met and heard of men who are irredeemable because of the way they treat the opposite sex. For example, I am incredibly angered by the actions of Mike Faverman, which recently went viral (note: Faverman's texts contain some graphic descriptions).
Now, I'm not going to say I'm a feminist, nor am I going to say I'm perfect at standing up for every feminist issue. I profess to and apologize for my ignorance regarding many of these issues. At the same time, I've noticed a few unpleasant trends in my dating life that are connected to self-proclaimed feminists, and I wanted to address them.
For starters, if you are a feminist, please don't disrespect my attempts to be chivalrous. Yes, chivalry is not dead. Yes, some men are jerks, but I don't hold your door open so I can look at your butt. I don't try to buy my way to kisses with dinner. I hold your door open because I'm showing you respect. I buy you dinner because I enjoy your company and doubt my own company would be worth it otherwise.
And you know what? I'm not going to stop doing those things. But if you are a feminist, don't take advantage of me. If you truly believe in equality between men and women, don't just keep accepting dates because you like getting free meals. I may enjoy your company, but don't waste your time if you don't enjoy mine. And if you do enjoy my company, then at least offer to buy a meal sometime, or even hold the door open. I probably won't let you, but at least I'll know you're not just enjoying the feeling of being served by a member of the opposition, aka men.
And if you're a feminist, don't play hard to get. Don't play coy and play games with people's minds. Don't put yourself on a pedestal. Don't make yourself a prize to be won. All you're really doing is objectifying yourself. You turn yourself into an object to lust after. You make yourself unreachable, and therefore less personable. Your refusal to communicate your true feelings masks your true character and persona, making it impossible for your value as a three-dimensional person to come to light. You are more than a shiny trophy. Don't be one.
And finally, it can be annoying to see men act like pigs. It can be annoying to watch them ogle and pine over statuesque celebrities. But if you are a feminist, don't ogle and pine over shirtless boy bands and actors. Otherwise, you engage in the same objectifying act. Don't create another double standard. The search for equality across gender, race, and creed should never compromise on any double standards.
This post may not be popular. I apologize for any offense, for none is intended. And I am definitely not saying all women, or even all feminists, act in the ways I described. That would be generalizing.
And I hate all generalizations.**
*I do not support extreme feminism, which I define as the aggrandization of women over men.
**I see the irony here.
This is really thoughtful. It's interesting how feminism becomes a completely different thing in the dating sphere. Thanks for giving me something more to think about!
ReplyDeleteYou claim to be helping feminists with this list, but all you're doing is telling feminists how to act around you so that you will be comfortable. That is absolutely not the point. The point of feminism is to allow women the same respect and opportunities already afforded to men; feminism is about hearing female voices on male-dominated topics and understanding that there are issues and situations in which men cannot have any voice or opinion. Who are you to tell women how to be better women? This post supports absolutely nothing regarding feminism. This list is solely a list of bones you want to pick with women who haven't lived up to your standards. Your statement that "you are only objectifying yourself" is victim blaming. If I want to act or dress a certain way I will, and it is in no way my fault that men will objectify me. Furthermore, your statement that you "probably won't let" a feminist hold the door open or buy you dinner states that you are in no way sympathetic to feminists. If you don't allow a woman to do either of those things based on your own misplaced sense of self-righteousness then any dating problems you might be having are on you.
ReplyDeleteI understand that you, and many other men, still believe in chivalry as a form of respect and are not intentionally being demeaning, but chivalry was created as a way to render women subservient and helpless (among other things). Even when I know a man is just trying to be nice, I find it belittling to have the door held open for me just because I'm a woman.
While your intentions were, I think, pure in regards to trying to be helpful with this post, you greatly missed the mark.
I think you have a lot of very legitimate points. But I do think it is important to present your dissent in a format of kind explaining instead of angry accusing, if only to be an effective communicator, let alone in an effort to not bolster the often earned stereotype that feminists are angry and finger pointing.
DeleteThank you, Melanie, for your comments! Welcome to C&C! You have some very good points, and I wanted to address them.
DeleteI liked what you said about how feminism seeks to allow women the same respect and opportunities already afforded to men, and that men cannot have a voice in certain female-related topics. That is very true.
You made several other good points, but I don't believe they match the context of the above post. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my explanations.
For example, I never claimed to be helping feminists with this list, nor do women who act in the ways I described make me feel uncomfortable. The purpose of this post was to outline what I perceive as idiosyncrasies in the beliefs of certain individual feminists and their dating habits. If someone wants to act in the ways I described, they are free to, but I won't miss any hypocrisy.
As it is, I don't believe my comments are designed to tell women how to be better women. I don't believe my comments were intended to support or promote the movement of feminism. And while I would definitely call my comments 'bones,' I wouldn't say I'm trying to hold anyone to a certain standard, unless that standard is to not be self-contradictory.
I could go on, but I think even I'm missing the point here. I want C&C to be a forum where people can share their thoughts and beliefs freely without fear. You and I may disagree on some of my points, but if we were to meet in real life, I believe we could have a civil discussion where we would discuss our differences in opinion and determine how we should act around each other. For example, if you felt me holding the door open for you was belittling, then I would be more than willing to give you that respect and not hold the door open for you.
If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to throw them at me! I just love discussions like this. :)
Melanie wrote: "...feminism is about hearing female voices on male-dominated topics and understanding that there are issues and situations in which men cannot have any voice or opinion," to which you responded, "That is very true."
DeleteWhat? I absolutely reject any assertion that any person cannot have a voice or an opinion about any subject. And if it is true that there are subjects on which men must be silent, then wouldn't it necessarily follow that there are subjects on which women must be silent? Why should female voices be heard on "male-dominated topics" if males are prohibited from weighing in on "issues and situations" that are, presumably, female-dominated topics? And who gets to determine which topics are off-limits for either gender?
Yes, feminism is about speaking up and being heard, but I have never understood feminism as prohibiting men not only from sharing their thoughts, but from even forming opinions. To hold such a position is a mockery of equality and the height of hypocrisy. Mr. James, please tell me I've misunderstood you.
Kind regards.
Thanks for your concern. I interpreted Melanie's comments to mean that when it comes to certain topics (like issues of male-on-female abuse or rape), other men should not be the consulting side of things. I also think that there are some subjects women should remain silent on, and not try to serve as consultants (including certain male-driven addictions).
DeleteNow, that's not to say that I can't be against rape, or that a woman can't be against pornography. But when it comes to seeking aid and assistance, I shouldn't be trying to help a woman recover from the psychological damage of such an experience. That should never be my prerogative.
I'm not sure I'm being clear on this, but does this answer your question?
By "I shouldn't be trying...," do you mean you personally, or you as a male? Does that extend to professionals, such as therapists or doctors? In other words, do you believe that all males are incapable of being able to speak to an issue such as the rape of women even if they may have loved ones who have been victims or they have specialized training in how to help victims? Even though males can be the victims of sexual assault as well? And as for pornography, while the subject may be more of an issue among males, it is not exclusive to them.
DeleteHowever, even if personal experience with these issues were exclusive to just one gender, I still do not agree that people not of that gender can not contribute to the discussion of the issue, or have empathy for, or be able to provide counsel related to the issue to someone of another gender. We all encounter people whose experiences are personally foreign to us, but that doesn't mean we can't offer insights based on our own experiences or even on the experiences of others around us. I may not have experience with a "male-driven addiction," but perhaps I can identify with someone who does because of my own struggles with some other addition. Or maybe addiction is not an issue at all for me, but I've found some time-tested way of dealing with personal trials that might be helpful in another person's struggle, whatever it may be.
I just don't believe that men and women are so very different that we can't learn from one another and be edified by sharing our thoughts and opinions with one another. To suggest otherwise, just because we may approach the subject from from different perspectives, would also mean that because I am not a minority I can't discuss racisim, or because I am not a Jew I can't discuss anti-semitism, or because I haven't experienced gun violence personally, I can't speak to that. The range of human experience is infinite. If my demographic make-up, unque history, and personal experiences had to align with someone else's before I could hope to have a meaningful meeting of the minds with them, then I would necessarily have to remain silent on all issues.
These are good points! You're right in that my personal experience does not necessarily correlate into me being male, so maybe I overstepped there.
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ReplyDeleteI'm not sure your title initially communicates your final point that you're not trying to generalize. But that aside, I thought these were very thought-provoking and well-brought-up points. (I would also mention, for the sake of awareness, that using the rhetoric "I probably won't let . . ." is a bit of an unwise choice. Not "letting" someone do something is rhetorically implying authority to determine someone's actions for them, and if your final decision on their actions is against their wishes, especially if your authority is assumed or unfounded, that is domination. Just a thought for maybe adjusting your rhetoric to accurately communicate the nuance I think you're going for. And to avoid subconsciously or accidentally supporting a sexist assumption.) Like I said though, I enjoyed reading your post.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments, Natalie! To be honest, I've always been bad at naming things (take this post where I confess as much: http://changeandcherish.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-process-how-i-construct-my-blog.html)
DeleteAnd you're right! My intention in saying 'I won't let' wasn't to say that I'd be asserting dominance over someone. If I had to rewrite the line, I'd say, "I wouldn't ever ask you, but ..." Maybe that's not the best way to put it, but if anyone has any suggestions, let me know!
Another thought: While I do think that chivalrous measures like paying for a date or opening a door are a way of showing respect and consideration,I think the real lesson to be learned is how to communicate one's intentions so that good intentions become effective and felt. In this case, insisting on communicating respect through traditional forms of chivalry may only result in creating a power struggle over your intentions and a woman's feelings, with neither party ending up feeling respected. Instead, I would suggest that it would be more kind to ask how she would most feel respected. Your good intentions are then stated, and you make it a point that you care about her feeling your respect more than you care about the specific formula you have for showing respect. Insisting on a tradition in spite of someone's feelings in most situations will undermine your original intent. Besides such consideration and communication shows that you consider her feelings legitimate and care to hear and respect them, building trust and respect. Anyway, food for thought. One of the surest logical fallacies is believing there are only two options. Thank you for writing a post that has caused me reflect and consider at such length.
ReplyDelete^^^ Yes! Just Yes! ^^^
DeleteWell, thank you for leaving a comment that gives me cause for reflection as well! I will now be sure to be more communicative in how I feel comfortable showing respect, as well as asking people how they would like me to show respect and then defer to their preference.
DeleteThis is actually great, because the situation you describe is similar to a post I'm working on posting in the next couple of weeks. The premise revolves around my huggy personality and how that puts some people off. I hope you'll enjoy that post, too!